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Hybrid Taxi Teardown after 230K

11K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  Billyk 
#1 ·
I stumbled across these 2 videos while surfing the net tonight. I know we've heard multiple times about the impressive durability of the Escape's Hybrid system, but the videos are short and somewhat informative. This was the first time I saw what the inside of the battery pack looked like.

 
#2 ·
Awesome video's thanks for sharing. Awesome to see Ford ahead of the competition in this department, (in reference to other makes). :thumb:
 
#4 ·
Makes me want to go out and get a ford hybird... :peace:
 
#5 ·
Billyk said:


A photo is worth a thousand words. Enjoy.
No photo to enjoy :shrug:
 
#7 ·
I hope they are not built weaker in the future. I really love our 2009 HEV. I was wondering if they are redesigning the battery pack in that first video for down the road replacements of OEM batteries. It would be cool if after 10 years you could put a litium ion battery pack or something that reduced the weight and space and increased performance.
 
#8 ·
yeah, cool, but this is because of a very conservative approach to the HV battery system. My primary dissatisfaction with my 2008 Hybrid Escape is precisely that. I live in a very hilly area, (apparently) and Ford has not optimised it's design to handle the additional power/torque requirements and availability, nor provided any alternate settings for environments such as these. The onboard computation hardware, firmware, and software probably has the capacity to even auto-adjust, if not simply accept other sets of setpoints for charge/discharge rates, levels, etc..

The battery itself is not a very expensive part, and the individual cells are quite inexpensive components. I learned the brake "double-tap" right away, along with the <1/2 sec ignition keyswitch cycle, and am irritated that those are the best I can do to over-ride the excessively conservative triggers chosen for gas engine cycling. I also feel that Ford should use RTDs throughout the cell-banks for determining actual heat levels, and using appropriate materials to withstand and dissapate the heat byproduct of the charge and discharge phases of the cells.

Now that I'm well beyond all warranties (113K miles) I'm considering adding a 2nd battery pack to my vehicle and cycling the 2 packs to affect a system with a pack that primarily charges, and cycling that function across the 2 packs, to achieve better capacity for regenerative braking and longer discharge cycles. When going up and down hills constantly this is quite valuable. Even with the additional battery capacity however, the VERY conservative 40% low charge trigger level is a poor use of the cells, and combined with the heat levels achieved or chosen as triggers for shut-off, yields a system which apparently lasts at least twice as long as need be.

I'd rather have the fuel economy of a Prius and service or swap-out my battery pack every 100K miles or so. If you want the 230k version, fine with me, all I want is the choice.

The Ford engineer remark about the Li Ion cells being 1/2 the weight really showed me where his head is at. I'm not driving an I-pod. I don't need my vehicle to lose 100lb (probably a lot less with a cell-for-cell changeout), but better capacity and charge/discharge rates and levels interest me!
 
#9 ·
hcbflash said:
The Ford engineer remark about the Li Ion cells being 1/2 the weight really showed me where his head is at. I'm not driving an I-pod. I don't need my vehicle to lose 100lb (probably a lot less with a cell-for-cell changeout), but better capacity and charge/discharge rates and levels interest me!
Just wondering... does anybody know how heavy the current battery pack is? With vehicles becoming more complex and needing to be stronger to meet more strict safety regulations, they are becoming heavier. I would think slicing a couple hundred pounds out of the curb weight (via a lighter battery pack) would have a noticeable effect on fuel economy. It may be only 1-2 MPG, but it still would be an improvement.
 
#11 ·
The Sanyo hybrid battery pack found in the 2005 thru 2008 Escape Hybrid comes in at around 110lbs. The 2009 Escape and newer models feature an improved design that is suppose to be lighter and more powerful. Part of this improvement is due to software changes/improvements.

There are 3rd party vendors that can convert your "normal" Escape Hybrid into a "plug in version" but the costs are quite steep at $30,000+. Some of these vendors-such as Hybrids Plus out of Boulder, Colorado-no longer exist due to various reasons.

The Escape is a small SUV with a large frontal profile compared to the Prius. Thus, the Escape is at a significant disadvantage when attempting to maximize fuel economy and bragging rights. Those hypermilers have to drive differently (and often in questionable manners) than "Jane and Joe Sixpack" to obtain those high values. Pulse and Glide is a frequently utilized technique not previously mentioned. If you want Prius like MPG's, then you need to get out of the Escape and drive something different.
 
#12 ·
I feel that Ford is not very agressive in pursuing the EV/HEV market, certainly not by consumer electronics standards. (Sounds like the 70s or 80s). Battery technology since 2000, even 2005, has been making leaps and bounds, but Ford has made no battery upgrades available. An upgraded battery pack along with software/firmware based control upgrades could probably get us another 10 MPG ("city driving"), and I bet Ford could sell a bunch of "upgrade packages" to current owners at a good profit. Heck they could include a current GPS disc and make a couple more bucks.

Quite honestly I expected such advised update/upgrades when I bought this Hybrid vehicle, and I've talked with others who expected that sort of thing.
 
#14 ·
hcbflash said:
I feel that Ford is not very agressive in pursuing the EV/HEV market, certainly not by consumer electronics standards. (Sounds like the 70s or 80s). Battery technology since 2000, even 2005, has been making leaps and bounds, but Ford has made no battery upgrades available. An upgraded battery pack along with software/firmware based control upgrades could probably get us another 10 MPG ("city driving"), and I bet Ford could sell a bunch of "upgrade packages" to current owners at a good profit. Heck they could include a current GPS disc and make a couple more bucks.

Quite honestly I expected such advised update/upgrades when I bought this Hybrid vehicle, and I've talked with others who expected that sort of thing.
Ford had a license agreement with Sanyo in regards to the Escape hybrid battery pack. We don't have this "agreement" in front of us and do not know the exact details in regards to software modifications-upgraded hardware and etc. Sanyo's is indirectly tied to Toyota due to "new ownership". FYI, Ford is now designing and constructing the hybrid battery packs for the 2013 and newer vehicles in house. They have been field testing new hybrid battery pack designs including the lithium-ion design since September 2007. The drop in upgrade feature you desire from Ford would also have to include a software modification and that is where the issue is. Since you are out of the warranty range, go talk with various vendors about what you want done and report back to us.

If you don't know anyone doing this type of modification try:


Steve Woodruff out of PHEV Prius. Search the net for further details.
 
#15 ·
yes, mantruck101, thanks so much for that video! It is very, very interesting and informative. I hope we can somehow keep it accessible through this site for a long, long time.

billyK, you've hit the nail on the head regarding the primary hurdles to altering/upgrading any battery in vehicles like this; "programming". I would expect a change to any Li battery to be quite complex, as their charge, discharge, heating, cell impedance, cell failure mode, voltage, life expectancy, storage, operating temperature, and packaging characteristics are much different than any existing NiMH or NiCd battery. An updated NiMH cell change could be made to existing NiMH packs relatively simply if not for the battery charge / discharge / idle program. No benefits could be realized from any other cell type without a control program specifically tuned to take best advantage of those specific cell characteristics.

If the vehicle were in effect controlled by an industrial PLC, I'd tear into the project right now, but auto makers chose from the onset of their use of microprocessor based controls to decentralize controls, and go as proprietary as possible with any and all components. I hate the proprietary bit at some levels, but can accept it if "manufacturers" options and upgrades are available. I'm an auto consumer created by automakers; I want options. I'd like to be able to choose my battery characteristic. I'm also unwilling to treat a car like the cell phone makers are forcing us to treat their products: if the battery's getting lame it's time for a whole new phone or car.

Why not offer different hybrid options? A hilly option, a hot weather option, a snowy climate option, a big city or taxicab option, a long-life option, a heavy mileage option, and of course the big-bucks PHEV option. I think that the market is mature enough to support it now, and I don't feel it was 5 years ago. I do feel that the battery pack form factor, package, system electrical characteristics, as well as ventilation requirements and connections on the 2008 Escape HEV battery are suitable for a variety of other Ford and non-Ford vehicles. I've got a feeling though that HEV batteries will be like cell phones though, and we'll all just shrug our shoulders and go along with it.
 
#16 ·
@billyk
"There are 3rd party vendors that can convert your "normal" Escape Hybrid into a "plug in version" but the costs are quite steep at $30,000+. Some of these vendors-such as Hybrids Plus out of Boulder, Colorado-no longer exist due to various reasons."

I beg to differ.

I own a 2011 FEH. Added Enginer 4kwh battery system in January. Cost was $4,000. With state rebates, net cost is $600. 10,000 miles later I am averaging 41mpg (AWD driven in all conditions including 4 wheeling in Colorado). Because I get a 25% boost in mpg, my ROI is about 1.5 years. By the way, Boulder Hybrid Conversions is in business in Boulder and installs both Enginer and Hymotion systems. Cost for Hymotion system is now in the $10,000 range and Enginer system is as I mentioned. Feel free to ask any other questions from a real user.

mountainman
 
#17 ·
mountainman said:
@billyk
"There are 3rd party vendors that can convert your "normal" Escape Hybrid into a "plug in version" but the costs are quite steep at $30,000+. Some of these vendors-such as Hybrids Plus out of Boulder, Colorado-no longer exist due to various reasons."

I beg to differ.

I own a 2011 FEH. Added Enginer 4kwh battery system in January. Cost was $4,000. With state rebates, net cost is $600. 10,000 miles later I am averaging 41mpg (AWD driven in all conditions including 4 wheeling in Colorado). Because I get a 25% boost in mpg, my ROI is about 1.5 years. By the way, Boulder Hybrid Conversions is in business in Boulder and installs both Enginer and Hymotion systems. Cost for Hymotion system is now in the $10,000 range and Enginer system is as I mentioned. Feel free to ask any other questions from a real user.

mountainman
Always nice to hear from one that is pushing the limits. Boulder Hybrid Conversion has been in business in that location for 13 months. Boulder, Colorado was previously served by Hybrid-Plus conversion and this is where I obtained my information and a first hand report in 2008. Hybrid-Plus went out of business after one of its Prius conversions caught on fire. One can search the internet to find a report on this.
Now for some thoughts on your post:
1. My state (Pa) and most of the states in the USA do NOT have tax credit ((85%) for plug-in automobile conversions as Colorado does.
2. You may average 41 MPG but.......the readers need to know his Enginer battery is limited in range--will let the poster state his range--and then the FEH will return to its usual MPG that users report once this extra battery range is depleted.
3. One the battery is depleted, the vehicle itself can not recharge a portion of it thru regenerative braking or the two generators found in the engine compartment. The Enginer battery must be connected to an electrical outlet.
4. The Return of Invesiment will vary from owner to owner depending upon their driving conditoins and skills. Does this figure include the cost of electricity to power or rehcarge the battery? How long does it take to recharge this?
5. This battery sits on teh floor of the cargo area. Problemsome for some owners, no issues for others.
6. My signature on this forum states my next care will be a PHEV.
 
#18 ·
Okay....
My point was to point out that your information was incorrect. Thanks for acknowledging that your information was from 2008.

Regarding your points, you can elect to tear down the cost/effectiveness/justification for adding batteries to the FEH all you want. It works for me. I was driving an SUV that got 17mpg before I bought my FEH. Without the enginer system, I got 32.6mpg. With the enginer system (for the past 10,000 miles) I average 40.5mpg driving an average of 40miles/day. A fully depleted battery (4kwh) takes 5 hours to recharge. There is no regenerative charging for the add-on (only for the HV built into the FEH). I have built a wood cover for my battery system which I have posted on another forum. It works well for me. Since I have enought solar panels on my roof to be net zero for the year, none of my electricity is coming from coal or other non-renewables. The "cost" of the electricity is 10 cents/kwh here in Colorado (more or less) so I "fill" my FEH with 40 cents/day to use 1/4 gallon less fuel.

There are hypermilers here and elsewhere that will claim better gas mileage than I with a stock FEH. I say good for them. But they are not driving what I drive. I've taken my FEH off-road (most recently South Colony Lakes trailhead, one of the worst roads in America) and driven highway miles without regards to "padding my stats". My only reason to post was to correct your misstatement and to say that there are people who have converted their FEH to a PHEV and are happy as a clam to have done it.

mountainman
 
#19 ·
It is good to read this news from someone that lives in a real world and isn't padding the mileage (mpgs) by pre-selecting driving conditions---I will not drive the Escape Hybrid today because it is too hot to use without the air conditioning running and that would decrease my mileage mpgs numbers/I'm going to drive the beach roads back home as I can drive between 25-40 mph and maximize my mpg figures--

I would like to convert to PHEV but without giving up the cargo space. I use the back cargo area in a variety of different ways and the current system just isin't going to work for me. I keep wondering why they can't do a wide and thin ceiling mount?
 
#20 ·
I finally found the photo I was looking for:


This is add on Enginer battery referred to in this post. If this could be redesigned so it doesn't take up so much cargo floor space, I would have an interest and likely obtain one/place an order next July.
 
#21 ·
Roof mount it............or ceiling mount it............ :shrug: .If it's possible
 
#23 ·
The add on Enginer Kits sit on top of the stock hybrid battery. The stock hybrid battery is the "floor" of the cargo area. When the rear seats fold flat, this add on kit makes the cargo floor "not level" and that is unsuitable for my purposes.
 
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