[DiamondB]

Hi,

My 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid has some performance issues (hesitation, high revs and low power when it's warmed up - seems better out of the gate when it's cold) I want to replace the throttle body as it's an easy job and TBs can cause performance issues. No codes are being thrown and it actually idles beautifully. I know that Ford had some issues with throttle bodies around this period. I wanted to know if I can install one of the 'updated' throttle bodies or whether I should just replace it with the exact same part.

Thanks so much in advance from your newest member!

Cheers!

 

[Mountain Escape]

Hi,

My 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid has some performance issues (hesitation, high revs and low power when it's warmed up - seems better out of the gate when it's cold) I want to replace the throttle body as it's an easy job and TBs can cause performance issue. No codes are being thrown and it actually idles beautifully. I know that Ford had some issues with throttle bodies around this period. I wanted to know if I can install one of the 'updated' throttle bodies or whether I should just replace it with the exact same part.

Thanks so much in advance from your newest member!

Cheers!

Welcome diamondb
Clean yours first, TB cleaner only. Not brake cleaner, not carb cleaner… Throttlebody cleaner

 

[DiamondB]

Thanks for the response! Sorry, I forgot to mention that I've cleaned it already, with the proper CRC stuff.

 

[dwightbresemann]

A new throttle body will not fix your ills. The throttle body is cable controlled. Very simply design and never fail, unless the cable fails. There is a throttle position sensor (TPS) attached to the throttle body. But if this had failed, there should be a code.

Do you have access to an upper lever scanner to read PIDS? Fuel pressure tester? Back pressure tester for the exhaust.

Vehicle runs better when cool (open loop). Vehicle performs poorly when warm (closed loop). Search closed/open loop on YouTube.

When was the last time you had a full tune up, complete tune up? With a good scanner, run the re-balance for the HV battery. The HV battery is half your power in a 08. Does the A/C work?

The hi reving is the charging of the HV battery.

Do not change the throttle body.

 

[DiamondB]

Thank you. I've just been reading and watching a whole bunch of vids about suspect throttle bodies on Escapes and wondered whether or not it was related. It seems that there have been a ton of warranty fixes and replacements and there was also a redesign to address the connectivity issues and I wondered if it was worth a shot. Not throwing codes through the regular OBD II scanner that I have is a big pain - it's like the truck is gaslighting me! I don't have a back pressure tester (I'll look into that too though) but the last fuel pressure reading (from OBDII) gave 270 Kpi (39 Psi) which I believe is normal. I've also changed the fuel filter.

I've had it checked over by a few independent garages (they didn't find any specific faults either) Ford checked it out too and told me that they suspected it to be a transmission failure but seemed to want to wash their hands of it and didn't charge me for the diagnostics, which was nice but it made me wonder whether they just didn't want to deal with it or stand by the diagnosis. Just a vibe. I'm getting no odd sensations from the transmission like clunking or lurching. I guess the revving could be construed as slipping but it feels to me like 'limp mode' I used to have a Jetta TDi that would go into limp mode and this feels much the same. I know what the truck can do and it just feels weak - it's not like it won't take me over a certain speed or anything - it just seems to be inhibited. I haven't taken it for a full tune-up and will look into that next. I appreciate your time and insight, the closed/open loop side of things is interesting and may well lead to the solve on this.

Here's one of the videos describing throttle body issues - sounds like I was jumping to the wrong conclusion but I do experience the hesitation at times and performance issues are also a bad TB hallmark so that's where I was going with it all:

Very much appreciated
Cam

 

[dwightbresemann]

The video you post is an electronic driven throttle body. You have a cable driven throttle body. Huge difference. Your throttle body is not causing the drivability problems.

So, you have a scanner and can read fuel pressure. Check fuel pressure while driving and at wide open throttle (WOT).
Do you know how to read "fuel trims"? I post the Specs for your fuel pressure.

So, Ford mention the transmission problem? You have a CVT design transmission. Focus your searches towards faults or failures of CVTs. The trans could be slipping.

No, Ford did not blow you off. They blow everyone off, if their vehicle is over 10yrs old. No money to be made, and no Techs who understand the early design. Nor do they want to work on them.

Find a good aftermarket tranny shop and have them take it out for a test drive. They would know if you have a tranny problem. Your transmission my be slipping, hence the loss of power, but it won't set a trouble code. Weird, but true.

Does the A/C work correctly? No A/C, means no HV battery power when the vehicle is warm. No HV battery is a loss of about 1/3 of your power. This also won't set a trouble code either.

Move on from the throttle body. This is not your problem.

If you have any questions, I'll try to answer them as good as I can.

 

[DiamondB]

Dwight, I'm hugely grateful for your guidance on this. I know that time is valuable (especially that of an expert such as yourself). These are excellent leads - I will be running some more tests today on the trims and pressure but I'm pretty sure that I'd ruled those out a little while ago - worth double checking, for sure.

I will also get her booked into a tranny shop that deals with CVTs ..I was finding when I called around that they weren't interested in looking at Hybrids and/or (e)CVTs but I've found somewhere that looks decent now (Vancouver BC). there's a longer story to the transmission side of things but my gut is still telling me that it might not be the trans (maybe it's just my wallet!)

On to the A/C: you know, I'm not convinced that the A/C is 100% - it blows cold but not cold enough for me (compared to other vehicles with A/C that I've encountered) so there might be something to that - I will get that professionally tested ASAP. I'm learning more and more how this Hybrid system works and expected that the ICE would do all of the heavy lifting up hills etc but that is apparently not the case. I'm not completely sure but I think there might be some info I can get back on the status of the HV battery from the 'Engineering Mode' on the console display. "Electrical Energy Ok" when I press info just doesn't cut it!

Yeah, it sucks that this thing seems to have sensors out the wazoo but it won't throw a code for transmission or A/C issues which are essential for optimal operability!

I'll report back after taking a spit a little later on.

A very appreciative,
Cam

 

[DiamondB]

Here's a couple of open throttle blasts up some nearby hills from today to show you trims and pressure - the screenshots were taken (by my wife) while my foot was down. Not sure if there was a delay in reporting via the bluetooth but probably not much. Maybe this tells you something.


.

These were taken during a session using the Infocar (iOS) app. I also did a scan for codes using another app called car scanner and it gave me a bunch of info which I don't think means anything but I thought I'd post it here too. It looks like maybe a compatibility thing ¯\(ツ)/¯

Car Scanner ELM OBD2
DTC report
Selected brand: Ford
VIN: 1FMCU59H78

============1==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: Engine control unit
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============2==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: Transmission control unit
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============3==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: ABS/ESP
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============4==============
P1000
Raw code: 1000
ECU: ABS/ESP
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete
Ford: Check of all OBDII Systems Not Complete Ford Manufacturer Codes; OBD-II Monitor Testing Incomplete

============5==============
U0418
Raw code: C418
ECU: ABS/ESP
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Invalid data received - brake system control module

============6==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: Dashboard
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============7==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: ACCM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============8==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: ACM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============9==============
P1000
Raw code: 1000
ECU: ACM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete
Ford: Check of all OBDII Systems Not Complete Ford Manufacturer Codes; OBD-II Monitor Testing Incomplete

============10==============
U0418
Raw code: C418
ECU: ACM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Invalid data received - brake system control module

============11==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: APIM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============12==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: BCM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============13==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: BCMC/BJB
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============14==============
P1000
Raw code: 1000
ECU: BCMC/BJB
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete
Ford: Check of all OBDII Systems Not Complete Ford Manufacturer Codes; OBD-II Monitor Testing Incomplete

============15==============
U0418
Raw code: C418
ECU: BCMC/BJB
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Invalid data received - brake system control module

============16==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: BECM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============17==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: BECMB
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII: Engine control (EC) relay - open circuit

============18==============
P0685
Raw code: 0685
ECU: CCM
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Test has not been completed, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request, Validated fault has been present during this drive cycle
OBDII:
==========

Thanks for your continued insight!
Cam

 

[DiamondB]

Full disclosure on that last code dump. I just remembered that I disconnected the battery the other day and I got messages related to the regenerative brake system when I fired it up. Rebooting the car resolved that so I think those might be red herrings related to that incident. Thx!

 

[DiamondB]

I just went back out and scanned for codes again using the InfoCar app and all it's picking up is P1000 which, AFAIK, is a temporary thing and not a cause for concern (?) Still no check engine light - I weirdly want to see a CEL cause that'd lead me closer to finding out what's up!

Ah, and before I forget: I've been watching the charge/assist gauge on the dash and, while I was driving up the hills - it was indeed moving over to assist. I didn't take the truck out for long but it was warmed-up. Maybe an A/C issue with the HV battery would manifest itself over a longer drive but the 'assist' side of things does seem to be working, at least on shorter runs. It's not super hot here today though. 16-18℃

Thx!

 

[dwightbresemann]

Good morning. Do not worry about the P1000. This is a nothing code, it will go away once the vehicle is fixed. Focus on the P0685. Find the relay and tap on it with the handle of a screw drive, or something similar. Remove it, can check its condition.

 

[dwightbresemann]

My preferred software for Fords is Download FORScan

Clear all codes from all modules. Now check for codes by running KOEO & KOER self-demand test. Do you know how to run these tests?

 

[dwightbresemann]

Code U0418.

 

[DiamondB]

My preferred software for Fords is Download FORScan

Clear all codes from all modules. Now check for codes by running KOEO & KOER self-demand test. Do you know how to run these tests?

You're a legend for doing this, Dwight - This is a great lead - I had previously discounted that information as other DTC scanner apps were just giving me the P1000... so, it looks like you're onto something here. I did try the Forscan program recently with a PC laptop (I'm a Mac user) but couldn't get it to play ball. I will try again. I have also just installed the Forscan iOS app but not sure if that is anywhere near as good. Will let you know how this goes. I guess the dream is to clear the codes and have that P0685 one come up when it limps out - that should nail it. In the meantime - I'll follow the info you sent to me and try to manually check the connectivity etc as you suggested. The braking system stuff was caused by me when I did the battery disconnect so I think those can be discounted. I booked her in for new plugs and a tune up tomorrow but I'm wondering whether I should just hold off/ask them to investigate that error if I can't get the fault cleared today/tonight. Will let you know ASAP!!

The scanner I'm using is "inexpensive" it's a $20 Torque ELM 327 Bluetooth V2.1 OBD2 scanner.

THANK YOU! Cam

 

[DiamondB]

No luck with Forscan - will press on with trying to do this using Car Scanner (the app that showed me that code in the first place) Thx!

 

[DiamondB]

Quick update: I located the PSR relay, took it out - inspected it and gave the connectors a clean with an alcohol prep pad. I also visually inspected where it connects to the PCM but didn't perform any multimeter tests. I took it for a spin afterwards and it's not feeling any better but, also, I'm no longer seeing that P0685 code - it's just P1000 all the way now (same app that I saw the P0685 code previously). I suspect that disconnecting the battery might have had something to do with generating that code and that it might have just needed to be cleared but I'll keep scanning and see if it comes back. Next step, I guess is to get that tune-up done. I'm following up with Midas about an appointment to do that tomorrow - this involves new plugs and a bunch of checks but I guess I need to be explicit about back-pressure tests? I'll tell them that the performance could be better and see what they say. Wish me luck! Thanks!

 

[Mountain Escape]

Quick update: I located the PSR relay, took it out - inspected it and gave the connectors a clean with an alcohol prep pad. I also visually inspected where it connects to the PCM but didn't perform any multimeter tests. I took it for a spin afterwards and it's not feeling any better but, also, I'm no longer seeing that P0685 code - it's just P1000 all the way now (same app that I saw the P0685 code previously). I suspect that disconnecting the battery might have had something to do with generating that code and that it might have just needed to be cleared but I'll keep scanning and see if it comes back. Next step, I guess is to get that tune-up done. I'm following up with Midas about an appointment to do that tomorrow - this involves new plugs and a bunch of checks but I guess I need to be explicit about back-pressure tests? I'll tell them that the performance could be better and see what they say. Wish me luck! Thanks!

Good luck, keep us updated please ( :
You seem to have skills <>B, how come you're not doing the tuneup yourself?

 

[DiamondB]

Good luck, keep us updated please ( :
You seem to have skills <>B, how come you're not doing the tuneup yourself?

Thanks so much! I'm good with some things but I've never done plugs/gapping or back-pressure tests, I'd like to learn though - you've inspired me to do so but I've still booked it in with Midas for Friday and they've told me that they will check the plugs/coils(?) and will check everything over and road test it but won't replace plugs if they don't find fault with them which I think is a sign of an honest outfit. Per Dwight's guidance, I need to take it to a decent tranny place if this doesn't bare any fruit. I realise that even the manual warns of high revving and that the Atkinson cycle engine, coupled with an eCVT can take some getting used-to. I don't think this truck would have sold as well as it did and have the general respect that it does if they all drove like mine though. It's a beautiful vehicle, fully loaded with the Audiophile stereo etc and I love the fuel economy (especially right now!) it's great a low speeds cruising around town but when I ask it to climb or accelerate, it feels like something is missing and it kinda grumbles at me. I know it's a heavy 4-banger and don't expect it fly. As soon as this is sorted out I will be so happy with this truck and can't wait for the summer road trips!

Cheers,
Cam

 

[dwightbresemann]

If the vehicle is due a tuneup, then have it done. Ask them to change the coil boots when changing the spark plugs. All DC circuits must be tested while loaded. A load is anything that consumes power. Once loaded, a multimeter is used to check the condition of the circuit. Search YouTube on how to load test a circuit. My load of choice is a small light bulb. Find a tail light or blinker bulb. 1157,3157, 4157, does not matter. Soldier two leads or wires to the bulb. I use about 15' of wire. At the other end of the leads, I attach alligator clips. Now you have a load.

P0685, is the PCM checking the condition of the circuit while loaded. Example, a corroded body ground. My multimeter may show continuity, but the circuit can not handle a 1 amp load.

A wiring diagram is where I start. Where are my grounds, body ground or PCM controlled ground. If it is a PCM controlled ground, the circuit is always hot and the PCM provides the ground. If it is a body ground. The circuit is cold till the PCM provides the power.

Will repairing these codes fix your ills, I don't know. With hybrids, everything must work in harmony. One unrelated fault can shut down the HV battery. Once you have no codes, then it's basic testing for the low power.

Disconnecting the 12v battery will only give you one code, P1000. This code only applies to Fords. So disconnecting the 12v battery did not give you codes. The disconnect will clear codes, not generate them.

 

[DiamondB]

Ohh ok so this P0685 error should be pursued, gotchya! So I'll get the plugs and boots and the back-pressure test done regardless and also ask them to load test -specifically- the circuit related to that error too. Reading wiring diagrams and doing the DC load tests might be a little out of my league to do myself but I'll see if I can find a decent video as I'm a complete novice and I need to see someone do exactly what I'm going to be doing. I think I have one of those lightbulbs that attaches to the battery ..I guess those croc clips might be too big. I did give that relay a tap like you said btw, Dwight...I read somewhere else that people would switch out relays to see if the issue followed the relay - wondered whether that might be worth doing.

Considering it's booked in on Friday and I'm workin' all week - I think I'll leave it to Midas - I just need to be super clear with them what I want them to do. I'm liable to miss something and kick myself when I jump back on here! I guess I need to get them to try to reproduce the P0685 and load test that circuit first and foremost. The carfax report that I have for the history of this vehicle makes mention of regular oil and filter changes but nothing about plugs so I guess that says it all. Plugs, boots, tune-up and P0685 load testing/test all grounds?

Humbled by all this support. Onward!

Thanks!
Cam