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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Update on this thread: 2010 V6 No-start problems. not ignition, Temp related?
My 2010 V6 has been giving me trouble for a couple of summers now. In hot weather (30C+) it doesn’t like to start after driving for a bit. It just gives me no turn over after sitting for a bit and typically I have to pop the hood and let it cool for ten minutes. Coolant levels are good, I swapped the thermostat out as well as the engine temp sensor. Engine temp is not reading high when the no-starts happen. I recently had this happen on a cold start (3 hours after driving) on a particularly hot day, even though the temp gauge was at the bottom of the range, which is concerning. Anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing this or how to diagnose?
 

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I would look at two things that could be temperature sensitive in the electrical start system. The starter armature could be dragging when it gets hot. The clearance between the armature and the windings that surround it are pretty close, and if there was any corrosion or other stuff in the starter it could cause the motor to drag. The starter solenoid(atop the starter, drags the gear into the ring gear on the flywheel) could also be dragging or stiff when it gets heated.
The above is based on 'nothing' happening when the key is turned to START.
Other than that, the ignition switch itself on a couple years is known to have a total no-response when attempting to start. Some can push the key into the lock cylinder and get results, others replace the ignition switch.
You may want to get a VOM and monitor the signal to the starter relay, starter solenoid to see if there is signal voltage coming from the ignition switch(and PATS, which also can/will cut starter volts). PATS as I understand will keep blinking if it does not recognize the key. It will not send juice to the starter if it is a 'foreign' or unknown key.
tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ah I forgot to mention, I replaced my starter and solenoid a few years ago when this first started happening, as well as the ignition lock cylinder. I will grab a multimeter and take it with me to test it next time I have troubles, as well as keep an eye on the PATS. Thanks!
 

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Replacing the lock cylinder may or may not correct one problem. The actual switch, at the opposite end of the lock cylinder from where the key is inserted, can get a bit sloppy, and not turn enough to engage START. IOW it does not send the voltage to the PATS to pass on to the starter relay to pass on to the starter solenoid... Takes checking the signal coming out of the actual switch, underneath the plastic cover on the steering column, and followng that signal to see that it is passed on. You can start at the switch, or start at the solenoid, and work your way to ?? whichever is easier, to see if the control signal(V) is being sent where it needs to go.
tom
 

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Update on this thread: 2010 V6 No-start problems. not ignition, Temp related?
My 2010 V6 has been giving me trouble for a couple of summers now. In hot weather (30C+) it doesn’t like to start after driving for a bit. It just gives me no turn over after sitting for a bit and typically I have to pop the hood and let it cool for ten minutes. Coolant levels are good, I swapped the thermostat out as well as the engine temp sensor. Engine temp is not reading high when the no-starts happen. I recently had this happen on a cold start (3 hours after driving) on a particularly hot day, even though the temp gauge was at the bottom of the range, which is concerning. Anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing this or how to diagnose?
My 05 decided one day not to crank. The starter circuit does two things - it puts 12V on the relay and grounds the low side which ordinarily is floating (don't know why they wired it that way). The 12V signal appeared on the start relay coil but the low side wasn't getting grounded when in start mode. I ended up adding an external ground to the start relay to bypass something wrong in the wiring.

John
 

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That isn't entirely the way it works for the 05. The PCM provides the ground to the starter relay control side, logic likely including PATS, and the 12v side comes from the ignition switch through the TRS/neutral safety switch, and only in park or neutral will 12v make it to the starter relay.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I would look at two things that could be temperature sensitive in the electrical start system. The starter armature could be dragging when it gets hot. The clearance between the armature and the windings that surround it are pretty close, and if there was any corrosion or other stuff in the starter it could cause the motor to drag. The starter solenoid(atop the starter, drags the gear into the ring gear on the flywheel) could also be dragging or stiff when it gets heated.
The above is based on 'nothing' happening when the key is turned to START.
Other than that, the ignition switch itself on a couple years is known to have a total no-response when attempting to start. Some can push the key into the lock cylinder and get results, others replace the ignition switch.
You may want to get a VOM and monitor the signal to the starter relay, starter solenoid to see if there is signal voltage coming from the ignition switch(and PATS, which also can/will cut starter volts). PATS as I understand will keep blinking if it does not recognize the key. It will not send juice to the starter if it is a 'foreign' or unknown key.
tom
Alright I got a multimeter and another no-start and did some testing. When the key is in the crank position, I get a click or two out of the starter but no amount of jostling cables or the starter will cause it to start. I am getting 12v into the two load contacts of the relay, and when in crank I get about 0.8-ish volts into the signal contacts, which seems about right to me. The relay has been swapped with one that works just to be sure.
I am getting 12v to the solenoid, but nothing to the starter itself when I crank. I can short the two contacts and make the starter spin, so the starter is not seized when this is happening.
From that info, I assume ignition, pcm, junction box, and battery can all be ruled out. Seems like it may be the solenoid, even though it was replaced with the starter two summers ago. I could pull apart the contacts to test the voltage on the signal cable to the solenoid to rule out everything else, but that would be a lot of work to do in whatever parking lot I get stuck in next. Anything else to test before I replace the starter again?
 

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QUOTE:"when in crank I get about 0.8-ish volts into the signal contacts, which seems about right to me. "

nope. not enough. should be at roughly battery voltage, otherwise the relay will not have the juice to operate, and the internal contacts will not be connected.
If you apply 12v to the signal contact the relay should operate and send voltage to the starter.
If you read the explanation about the automatic starter, it uses the PCM and transmission switch to control the relay in the BJB. The driver has no control once the key has been in START for more than a few seconds. I would monitor the signal coming from the PCM to see if it is providing power/ground(cannot see while typing) as it should.
The description points more towards the relay and the PCM and another box in the circuit. Not the starter, or starter solenoid.
tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE:"when in crank I get about 0.8-ish volts into the signal contacts, which seems about right to me. "

nope. not enough. should be at roughly battery voltage, otherwise the relay will not have the juice to operate, and the internal contacts will not be connected.
If you apply 12v to the signal contact the relay should operate and send voltage to the starter.
If you read the explanation about the automatic starter, it uses the PCM and transmission switch to control the relay in the BJB. The driver has no control once the key has been in START for more than a few seconds. I would monitor the signal coming from the PCM to see if it is providing power/ground(cannot see while typing) as it should.
The description points more towards the relay and the PCM and another box in the circuit. Not the starter, or starter solenoid.
tom
I will admit I don’t have a complete grasp of how these relays work, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. but the relay has 4 contacts, a 12v in from the battery via the fuse that is always hot, a 12v out to the starter, and a “signal” in from the PCM and it’s ground. So if the ignition is cranked, the PCM sends the signal to the relay to allow the 12v to pass from battery to starter. If this is true, why would the signal need to be 12v? I confirmed that the load wire coming into the relay from the battery does have 12v coming into it, and the signal wire having 0.8v seems about right for a simple PCM signal to the relay. Is this wrong?
 

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Divide the starting circuits into two halves. The cranking and the request to crank. Let's start with the cranking side. Remove the starter relay from the battery junction box (BJB). Find terminal cavity #5, it's printed on the plastic of the BJB. Apply 12v battery Pos to #5, engine should crank, but not start.

Testing the crank request, PCM side. Find an incandescent test light. Take test light and touch Pos & Neg at the battery and note the brightness of the lamp. This is important. Now connect test light to terminal cavity #2 & #1 and crank engine. Did the test light shine bright?

Disregard the .8v with the multimeter. The .8v is a test signal the PCM sends out to check the integrity (load) of a circuit.

Multimeters test sensors, not circuits. Loads test circuits, hence the incandescent test light.

I think you have a failing starter. Did you tap on the starter when acting up, like I requested?

Look what happen if you apply power to the wrong cavity Solved - 07 ford escape 2.3l BIG PROBLEM

Questions, I'll be happy to help.

Rectangle Schematic Font Slope Circuit component
 

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Questions, I'll be happy to help.
This forum should be called:
Ready?

the escape school… lol

Y'all got some hella knowledge!
there are so many fantastic contributors.

thanks to everybody.

if nothing else, it's great reading when I can't sleep
lol
 

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Update on this thread: 2010 V6 No-start problems. not ignition, Temp related?
My 2010 V6 has been giving me trouble for a couple of summers now. In hot weather (30C+) it doesn’t like to start after driving for a bit. It just gives me no turn over after sitting for a bit and typically I have to pop the hood and let it cool for ten minutes. Coolant levels are good, I swapped the thermostat out as well as the engine temp sensor. Engine temp is not reading high when the no-starts happen. I recently had this happen on a cold start (3 hours after driving) on a particularly hot day, even though the temp gauge was at the bottom of the range, which is concerning. Anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing this or how to diagnose?
Hi Nelson,
Just curious if any work has been done recently, or if someone saw something hanging from your undercarriage and tore it down… Like some heat shielding maybe?

not trying to be a smartie, just trying to start at the beginning.
Electronics will definitely fail when overheated.

but if you had a failing sending unit, stating to your cars brain that you were overheated, I could see that possibly preventing a restart.
I don't know if our cars are that smart, GEN II.

I have heard of excessive cold killing batteries, it seems logical that excessive heat could too.

it is free to take your battery to your local auto parts store, and have them test it. 12V Batteries only seem to the last five years nowadays
 

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Five years? You must be treating them right.

Dwight, I thought it was noted that if power was applied to the starter solenoid(I assume mounted to the starter), the engine would crank.
If the test light(bulb & socket) were to be connected(touching) the control pins for the starter RELAY, it should light when the ignition switch is rotated to START, if everything else is working.
If no control(12v) is noted, and the bulb fails to light, then the problem is likely not mounted to the engine, but is within the PCM or the relays or the BJB. All the other boxes in the diagram above.
I would test for proper control voltage being provided to the starter relay mounted in the BJB.
tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi Nelson,
Just curious if any work has been done recently, or if someone saw something hanging from your undercarriage and tore it down… Like some heat shielding maybe?

not trying to be a smartie, just trying to start at the beginning.
Electronics will definitely fail when overheated.

but if you had a failing sending unit, stating to your cars brain that you were overheated, I could see that possibly preventing a restart.
I don't know if our cars are that smart, GEN II.

I have heard of excessive cold killing batteries, it seems logical that excessive heat could too.

it is free to take your battery to your local auto parts store, and have them test it. 12V Batteries only seem to the last five years nowadays
Nothing changed on the car in terms of heat shielding or anything. The battery was replaced after the first summer of problems because of low CCAs, I think a previous electrical issue fried it a little. I may test again if this persists, but I don't suspect the battery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Divide the starting circuits into two halves. The cranking and the request to crank. Let's start with the cranking side. Remove the starter relay from the battery junction box (BJB). Find terminal cavity #5, it's printed on the plastic of the BJB. Apply 12v battery Pos to #5, engine should crank, but not start.

Testing the crank request, PCM side. Find an incandescent test light. Take test light and touch Pos & Neg at the battery and note the brightness of the lamp. This is important. Now connect test light to terminal cavity #2 & #1 and crank engine. Did the test light shine bright?

Disregard the .8v with the multimeter. The .8v is a test signal the PCM sends out to check the integrity (load) of a circuit.

Multimeters test sensors, not circuits. Loads test circuits, hence the incandescent test light.

I think you have a failing starter. Did you tap on the starter when acting up, like I requested?

Look what happen if you apply power to the wrong cavity Solved - 07 ford escape 2.3l BIG PROBLEM

Questions, I'll be happy to help.

View attachment 2709
Thanks for the tips, I will get myself a test light for the next time it no-starts.
 
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