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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I saw a similar thread on the Tahoe forum I have been visiting and thought it was thought provoking so I borrowed it.

I have to admit I am torn on this issue. If you are in business and you make wrong choices or spend your money unwisely, prior to now you would go out of business.

GM, Ford, Chrysler were all producing cars that (at the time America wanted to purchase). America screams at the Big 3, "We need room for massive amounts of stuff, etc.".

Then the economy goes downhill. No one can afford to fill up a Tahoe or Yulon or Expedition that takes over $100 a pop. America now screams at the Big 3, "You need to make puny, gas sippers."

The Big 3 are only partly to blame. They only produced what they thought we would purchase.

From 2001 to October 2006, my family and I lived in metro Detroit. We got to know some of the people who work in the auto factories. They are not all bad people. They are trying to make a living just like everyone else. It is because of these people, I think a bail out isn't all bad.

That's my story and I am sticking to it (for now). :confused:
 

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i have lots of friends and family that are directly affected by the big 3. my buddies wife admitted that she got paid way to much for the work she did for ford before nemac started building the engines (she worked in windsor). ironic she was helped build the 3.8L that was in my 01 windstar LoL.

bail them out so they can compete, but honestly, just charge more for the imports lol. make it mandatory that no import vehicle can have better fuel mileage then the best one made by the big 3 hahaha (thats mostly sarcasm)
 

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I read an article, I don't remember where, about the big 3 being in trouble.

They said costs and the union went through the roof in the 90s, but that's also when SUVs and trucks took off as personal vehicles, which were highly profitable to Detroit. So they gave up trying to compete in small and midsize cars and dominated trucks and SUVs, making tons of money so the high cost of labor (and retirement) weren't a concern. According to that article, Detroit has now brought its labor and costs down to more competitive rates but the shift from large profitable trucks to small, efficient cars has caught them looking the other way still.

Not sure how I feel about a bailout. GM has been making subpar cars for sooooo long I wonder if they will ever get it right (with a few exceptions), Ford seems to swing from good to bad and Chryslers record is spotty as well. I think all these jobs are very important and I don't want to see Chevrolet, Lincoln or Jeep go away but I hope the government will do more than say, "Ok here's a couple billion, do what you want." Unfortunately I don't know what to tell them.
 

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Make the foriegn companies have a union contract like the Detroit companies. If it isn't built here, it's not sold here. Period. Others do it. Look at Japan, or Korea, India, whereever. The "tarriffs" and the Non-tarriffs are unbelieveable. If a country has an open border to us, then the cars built there can be sold here, assuming it isn't a company that builds there for the convienence of selling here.

That would mean that Toyota could sell it's little cars elsewhere because they aren't built here. Big cars are built here, so they can be sold here. They just need to belly up to the union bar and provide equivalent wages to our workers in their factories. Same for VW, Mercedes, Kia, whomever. Not built here, not sold here.
 

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I've been pondering how to comment on this subject, without starting a war of words. For I have worked in the auto industry in S.E. Michigan for 40 years. But I will say that there is allot of blame and finger pointing to debate for, God only knows how long. Bad management? Greedy unions? Bad products? (not so) Free trade? The government? The list goes on and on. But I will say this. If the Big 3 go under. It'll, Directly and in-directly affect over 4Million people. You'll get the trickle down effect. Suppliers, mom & pop restaurants, retail, bank loans, etc. etc. Take Lordstown,Ohio as an example. Lordstown could stand to lose 3 million of their 4.3 million budget alone. That is not a figure I threw out. That figure was on Yahoo (finance) this morning. So to any people that want to see them fail. Remember, we are not talking about a company with only 5 thousand employs scattered around the country. We're talking about 4 million. I just hope you never have cut lawns, pump gas or take any freaking job, just to pay rent,gas,elect, and put food on the table. That's an awful road to go down and I don't wish that on anyone!!!! I'm done......... :peace:
 

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I'm just trying to level the playing field, not legislate anyone in or out of business. Most American companies are in existence without government subsidies. Most foriegn car and electronic companies are either subsidized or owned by the government. That alone counts for allot of differences in product pricing. If everyone isn't careful, they are going to kill the goose that buys the golden eggs.
 

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You know what I find funny? These big *** corporations can't keep thier books in the positive and it is MY fault...so now I have to bail them out with my tax money...I think it is complete BS. Yeah, I don't want the auto makers to go away but if they can't hack it then get out...amd I cruel?
 

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Tough Love Scooter? :lol:

Most of the car companies ever founded failed. And most of the car companies that are to be founded will fail. Sooner or later.
 

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take motorcycles for example, there used to me hundreds of manufacturers in the US and Canada, now all we get is imports. including parts put on a harley. give me an old Can Am anyday!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger

UAW leader says blame economy for Detroit 3 woes

Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that the problem is not the union's contract with the automakers and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

"The focus has to be on the economy as a whole as opposed to a UAW contract," Gettelfinger told reporters on a conference call, noting the labor costs now make up 8 percent to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

"We have made dramatic, dramatic changes and the UAW was applauded for that," he said.

Instead, Gettelfinger blamed the problems the auto industry is suffering from on things beyond its control - the housing slump, the credit crunch that has made financing a vehicle tough and the 1.2 million jobs that have been lost in the past year.

"We're here not because of what the auto industry has done," he said. "We're here because of what has happened to the economy."

Gettelfinger also called on Congress to act quickly on a bailout plan for the auto industry, saying action is necessary before President-elect Barack Obama takes office in January.

He said if one automaker were to file for bankruptcy, the others may follow. He said the automakers would find it difficult to restructure under bankruptcy laws and instead could end up out of business. "Would you buy a car from a bankrupt automaker?" he asked.

The Center for Automotive Research, which receives funding from the auto industry, has warned that the collapse of the Big Three could set off a catastrophic chain reaction in the economy, eliminating up to 3 million jobs and more than $150 billion in tax revenue over the next three years.

Gettelfinger called on Congress to act quickly to provide loans to help the automakers until the economy improves and the automakers can move ahead with their plans to become more competitive.

"We cannot afford to allow to see this industry collapse. There is a real concern that could happen."

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are seeking $25 billion from the government to get them through the economic crisis and the worst sales slump in more than 25 years. GM appears to be in the worst shape, warning that it can't borrow from normal sources.

The nation's largest automaker said it had $16.2 billion in cash at the end of September, raising the possibility that GM will fall below the minimum of $11 billion to $14 billion needed for day-to-day operations by the end of the year.

Democrats in the lame-duck Congress are pressing for a bailout of Detroit's Big Three with money from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue package. But President George W. Bush and many Republicans have come out against the idea, arguing that the financial rescue package was not intended for such uses, and that a bailout would reward poor management and lead other industries to demand government handouts.

In a statement Saturday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the Democratic proposal gives automakers time to develop plans to assure their long-term viability, including meeting new fuel-efficiency standards and developing new technology.

"A restructured, competitive American automobile industry will continue to play a crucial role in our national economy and in the global marketplace," she said.

You know I am not sure if the UAW really cares about their members or not.

I am not inclined to bail out the Big 3 if their union has no interest in making an effort to help save the company.
 

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Don't get me wrong guys, I'm no union lover. My own union stabbed me in the back on pay structure. Some of what is going on is the contract fault, not so much the union. Car companys signed off when they should have held back and vice versa. But that's 20/20 hindsight. If people are not buying made in America products, then the American companies that employ Americans are going to fail. And right now, the American public is getting laid off from work in big numbers, but not as big as what the news media makes it out to be. So, everyone is sucking it up and not buying any cars, few houses, and cut way back on clothing and eating out. We as a nation need to get out and spend what we have in our pockets, and not borrow unless we have to. It'll lead to a slow but stable recovery if everyone would just do that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I received this email this afternoon and thought it was interesting. The email was from Troy Clarke who is GM's Group President for GM North America.

Dear Charles Ramsey,

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support. I want to assure you that we are making our best vehicles ever, and we have exciting plans for the future. But we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The U.S. economy is at a crossroads due to the worldwide credit crisis, and all Americans are feeling the effects of the worst economic downturn in 75 years. Despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, U.S. auto sales rely on access to credit, which is all but frozen through traditional channels.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your state representatives.

Please take a few minutes to go to http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com, where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. senators and representatives. Just click on the "I'm a Concerned American" link under the "Mobilize Now" section, and enter your name and ZIP code to send a personalized e-mail stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, we are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac G8, GMC Acadia, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn AURA and more. We offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better - more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market and 3 more by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports, and today we are putting our best quality vehicles on the road.

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,

Troy Clarke
 

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Right! Get all the loans that you can, then go into reorg. bankruptcy. And wouldn't you know it, the judge wiped out all those nasty government loans with a decision and a signature!

:cigar:
 

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i wonder where my letter is lol, my wife has a Cobalt. im gonna goto that link adn see if i can fill it out from canada.
 

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it wont work lol, but i do have a detroit ZIP code memorized lol.
 

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cbramsey said:
I received this email this afternoon and thought it was interesting. The email was from Troy Clarke who is GM's Group President for GM North America.

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support . . . .

Please take a few minutes to go to http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com, where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. senators and representatives . . . .

Sincerely,

Troy Clarke
They're really getting desperate - I received that same letter this week, and my last GM purchase was . . . .

ELEVEN YEARS AGO (this month!).
 

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Ok, I now this view is going to be "controversal", but ...............
Over here, we had a car firm called Rover, based in Birmingham.
They employed well over 1000 people
It was what was left of the vast empire called "British Leyland" which was a state owned company, which made cars, trucks and busses, and reached a virtual monopoly of the market in the 1970's, but the products were outdated, when compared to the (foreign) competition.
So what happened.......................
The bus division (they were really s*** products, ended up being taken over by Volvo, then shut down
The truck division was sold to DAF, and closed down(again, Leyland trucks were outdated pos's)
The can division was sold to a consortium, and renamed LDV, but that closed down just over a year ago (ok, the LDV's sole van product was a design that dated back to the 1950's, and only the Post Offfice kept buying them in large enough numbers to keep the company going, but even they realsied in the 21st century that a Ford Transit was a better product)
The car division was then sold to British Areospace, after Honda, whcih had worked with them for a few years, decided it was a lame duck.
BA then sold the company at a loss to BMW, who only wanted the rights to the Mini, they then sold it to a consortium, who still plugged along with a range of overpriced cars that all dated back, in design, at least 20 years, but they realsied that too late, when they introduced the Rover 75, a quality car, but made too late to save the company.
What happened, they went bust.

Now, in the USA, the big three are begging for government help.
why is this.
Simple, really, the consumer wanted a good, reliable, well specced car, and chose to go to foreign manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc.
What did the big 3 do about this, did they then have a deep look at the competition, see why people were buying those cars, and then develop a home grow, realsitic alternative?
No, they continued churning out big, gas guzzlling cars.

Now that people are watching thier finances, the big three are stuck with vast numbers of unsold, unwanted cars, and expect every person in America to help them out..............

Hmm, here is a simple business lesson, the public will buy a good product, if it's junk they won't, resulting in the manufacture of the junk product going bust, and the manufacturer of the good product making healthy profits.

If the US government lends them the capital, whats next, silicone valley needs a lone because the Japenese can make microchips cheaper, and better, the jean industry neeeds a lone because the far east can make the same product cheaper

Or, to put it another way, yep, youve had a good few years earning money, but you have now lost your job, will you then apply to the state for a loan to keep a roof over your heads, I don't think so.

Yes, I don't like the fact that a lot of people are going to lose there jobs, but if this same workforce had been more co-operative in the past, instead of demanding "union rights", then maybe they wouldn't be in the postion they are in now.

Hope all that makes some sense :whistle:
At
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
camusdarrach said:
Hmm, here is a simple business lesson, the public will buy a good product, if it's junk they won't, resulting in the manufacture of the junk product going bust, and the manufacturer of the good product making healthy profits.
Camus,

Couldn't agree with you more!!!!!!!!! :thumb:
 

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camusdarrach said:
Simple, really, the consumer wanted a good, reliable, well specced car, and chose to go to foreign manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc.
What did the big 3 do about this, did they then have a deep look at the competition, see why people were buying those cars, and then develop a home grow, realsitic alternative?
No, they continued churning out big, gas guzzlling cars.
I think this is most of the problem. I don't know if they're anyway the gov't could be sure that the Big 3 would make more competative cars with a taxpayer handout....
 
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