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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If I assume 10K/year driving, and $3.5/gal gas:

Code:
	FORD ESCAPE XLT '09		$19,800.00	
Years	City	Freeway	Estimate	
	20	28	23	
5	$8,750.00	        $6,250.00	        $7,608.70	        $27,408.70
10	$17,500.00	$12,500.00	$15,217.39	$35,017.39
15	$26,250.00	$18,750.00	$22,826.09	$42,626.09

	FORD ESCAPE '09 HYBRID		$27,000.00	
Years	City	Freeway	Estimate	
	34	31	34	
5	$5,147.06	        $5,645.16	         $5,147.06	        $32,147.06
10	$10,294.12	$11,290.32 	$10,294.12	$37,294.12
15	$15,441.18	$16,935.48	$15,441.18	$42,441.18
It is $20K to purchase a Escape XLT (2WD), and almost $27K+ for a Hybrid 2WD. So I plug that into Excel and I get that above chart? Even giving the Hybrid a combined average of 34, the gas Escape still beats out after 15 years.

So, what is the best option? I need help figuring out which to buy.

What kind of MPGs are you getting for the Hybrid? I expect to do mostly 60% city driving... but that is very subjective I guess.
 

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Ford really wants you to compare the Hybrid version of the Escape against a comparably equipped V6 Escape, since the electric motor(s) provide sufficient performance make the FEH feel more like the V6.

On straight cost, the 4-cylinder Escape will always make more sense. But then buying a Hybrid is a bit more than just cost... it's tailpipe emissions, and a truly "limited" Escape which will always provide a unique thrill when it cruises in electric-only "stealth" mode (after almost five years of ownership, I still enjoy cruising in rush-hour traffic or through the neighbourhood with no engine).

Also check on federal & state rebates for hybrid purchases... depending on where you are, there may be further reductions to the price you have listed.

As to mileage, it will vary greatly depending on your driving style -- it does take an adjustment to see maximum return and I can post some fairly impressive numbers when I want to. (Driving a 45-year-old Valiant is great training for hybrid ownership... easy on the gas, and light on the brakes well in advance of the stop line).

:beer:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
MPG will go down for any car, so in the long run any given car's true MPG values will go down (probably can slow this down with proper maintenance)... but:

I am worried about the battery. It could have a very bad resale value, since no one will want to buy a hybrid after 10 years, since they *may* have to dish out another 3-5K to put in a new battery?

Also, the price above takes into account the $1500 tax credit. It is still expensive. These are not dealer prices, I have to go see them...
 

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I think that the battery price you are expecting to pay may actually be considerably less. Who knows, the newer battery may also have more capacity.

On the other hand, I bought the four cylinder Tribute vs. a Hybrid because I looked at it in a strictly business case. So, yes the Hybrid is more costly. And what HybirdArchitect says it true. Sometimes it's what you are doing for the enviorment. And Ford does want you to look at the V-6, it's less cost effective to buy, insure and maintain. So the hybrid will look a little less expensive as an option. ;)
 

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The theory is that the regenerative braking system will lessen wear on the brake pads as the electric motor switching into generator mode (to recharge the battery pack) creates the initial braking.

Some of the taxi cab companies which have accumulated significant mileage on hybrid vehicles (and were able to compare the maintenance logs with similar non-hybrid vehicles) have reported that their brake wear is about half of a "conventional" vehicle for the same distances travelled.

We are at 92,000 kilometres (over 57,000 miles) on our 2005 Escape Hybrid and a recent inspection showed 6 mm remaining on the front pads and 8 mm remaining on the rear pads (note: the hybrids had disc brakes front & rear, while other Escape models have rear drum brakes). This is considered "light wear" and we will likely get quite a few more clicks before having to do our first ever brake job.

As to the battery, as jonas noted, the replacement costs for this item have been steadily declining and Ford themselves states that the battery pack is designed to last "the lifetime of the vehicle"; it will be interesting to see how many require replacement after the warranty period ends (8-10 years), but the earliest Honda Insight & Toyota Prius hybrids (which have now passed 8 years in service) are not experiencing significant battery replacement issues (and new battery costs that are less than half the original cost of the battery pack).

I think you will have to potentially worry about gas engine related repairs/replacements long before battery replacement... far more moving parts, heat, friction, and other nasty things to cause failure and breakdown.

:shades:
 

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As others her & GH mentioned, we all LOVE our FEH's, so of course we're slightly biased.

At the time I purchased (May 07) I got an 08 with most options -Nav, For $28k, a similar V6 XLT was something like $22-24k (Can't recall as I was not even interested in one). But I got the full fed tax credit of $3k ($3300 maybe) and a state credit of $1500, so upfront cost was almost equal (9 months later when I did my taxes).

I was obsesed the first year, I checked ebay non stop for value, it seems for a while I could have sold my used escape for more than I paid for it! But then gas was $4/gal.

I have no complaints of noise, and I have the moon roof. The tires and or change in body styles must have made a difference ( I never drove an older model to compare) but it's relative quiet. Not as much as my Expedition EB, but hey a $28k vs $38k vehicle.

Braking, no complaints there either. 08's have 4 wheel disc, 09's have disc/drums but add roll over stability (RSC is Think)

The battery life/$ concerns me as well, but no real world info yet on the longevity other than SF cab's are being fored into retirment at 300k miles, and no mentions of major problems.

Maintaince can be a bit lower, oil changes at 10k miles/1yr vs what is it now, 3k, 5k reccomended on the ICE versions. Brakes seem to last much longer, the LRR tires seem to have a long life as well. I think between these boards members mentioned the loud ones last 80k+

I've heard 09's are even better than the 08's (10's even better still?) Even it nothing else the eCVT tranny seems to help, infinate 'shift' points can drop RPM's anytime! I belive the ICE 09's have added a gear to get slightly better mpgs, but they are still at phyical points.

I'm sure there is more but that's I have for now.
 

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IMO I'd buy a hybrid no questions asked :D There's no saying how high gas prices will get THIS summer... *crosses fingers*
Even though the initial cost may look higher, I think it'll eventually pay off in the long run :yes:
 

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Well replicase and Spark, if you want to deal in generalities. Try these. It's cheaper to keep her. In other words. If you own a car, that is fully paid for. It's cheaper to keep what you own, even if the gas mileage isn't that great. In fact, it could be downright terrible. (There are Scientific formulas that the business community uses to determine exactly what that point is. I studied that years ago. Even had them memorized. I have since hit the erase button on that part of my life, so the actually formula required is long gone from my brain cell.) The point that I am trying to make is that it could still be cheaper to keep what you own, rather than going into debt to buy a new Hybrid, or anything else for that matter.
This applies to the ecology portion of the equation as well. If you trade in your current vehicle, it's not going to disappear. Someone else will buy it, and drive it, and use more fuel anyway. And to build an ecologically correct Hybrid (or whatever) takes energy and resources as well.
It used to be, I don't know if it still is, that it took more resources and energy to build a new car (any car) than what that car would burn in fuel in a normal lifetime of ten years.
I'm just saying, if you want to be ecologically, or financially savy.
Get out your computer databases and do some calculating. It may be in your (or anyone else's) favor to keep what they own, and buy smart/ecologically and financially when absolutely necessary. But not before. ;)
 

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jonas1022 said:
Well replicase and Spark, if you want to deal in generalities. Try these. It's cheaper to keep her. In other words. If you own a car, that is fully paid for. It's cheaper to keep what you own, even if the gas mileage isn't that great. In fact, it could be downright terrible. (There are Scientific formulas that the business community uses to determine exactly what that point is. I studied that years ago. Even had them memorized. I have since hit the erase button on that part of my life, so the actually formula required is long gone from my brain cell.) The point that I am trying to make is that it could still be cheaper to keep what you own, rather than going into debt to buy a new Hybrid, or anything else for that matter.
I can't speak for the OP, but they never mention trade-in, we don't know, this might be an initial purchase.

This applies to the ecology portion of the equation as well. If you trade in your current vehicle, it's not going to disappear. Someone else will buy it, and drive it, and use more fuel anyway. And to build an ecologically correct Hybrid (or whatever) takes energy and resources as well.
Using this analogy, if he keeps the current vehicle, someone else will buy the 09 and they will still both be on the road.

It used to be, I don't know if it still is, that it took more resources and energy to build a new car (any car) than what that car would burn in fuel in a normal lifetime of ten years.
Can't say with certainity, but the Escape plant (for both models) is a resource saving plant, They Escape use recyclyed materials in their seats, the plant is or nealy all powered from alt energy sources, pulling this info from the deep recesses of my brain so a little fuzzy.

replicase says he wants an Escape, just can't decided which will be cheaper over the life of the vehicle. Based on the spreadsheet it appears it'll be a lifetime purchase (15yrs). So my opnion would be a Hybrid, hedgeing bets on the volitile gas prices. If we have another record summer of $4+ due to hurricanes, war, N Korea, China buying all the supply, what ever, I'd rather have something getting a little better milage.
 

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jonas1022 said:
Well replicase and Spark, if you want to deal in generalities. Try these. It's cheaper to keep her. In other words. If you own a car, that is fully paid for. It's cheaper to keep what you own, even if the gas mileage isn't that great.
I keep using this argument on my wife when she wonders why I'm still driving my 45-year-old Valiant. She doesn't seem convinced however, so I'm going to send her your way jonas...

:bill:
 

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I got a 2005 Hybrid and couldn't be happier with the purchase. I would speculate the resale value of the hybrid is going to be significantly greater than the non-hybrid version for a reason not yet mentioned-it is possible to convert the current hybrid version to a PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicle).

At Greenhybrid.com one can read of numerous Honda hybrid battery issues at the 80-100,000 mile range. In fact, one California owner just recently posted about being denied warranty coverage for his 2001 Honda Insight. California is suppose to be the home of the 10 year, 150,000 mile hybrid warranty coverage. It is rare to read of a Ford or Toyota (I have read of 2 Ford and 4 Toyota) hybrid battery failures under warranty. That said, Honda designed their hybrid system different than what Ford or Toyota has.

The mileage figures don't tell the truth about what happens in real winter conditions. Hybrids are sensitive to the cold and might show a greater drop in mileage than non-hybrid vehicles.
 

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Billyk said:
The mileage figures don't tell the truth about what happens in real winter conditions. Hybrids are sensitive to the cold and might show a greater drop in mileage than non-hybrid vehicles.
Winter will certainly impact any automobile, but I'm not sure how poorly the hybrid model would ultimately fare against the non-hybrid (we remain fairly balmy here on the "wet" coast). However, there is one individual who posts a lot of real-world, personal experience in this regard.

John1701A is a well-known Toyota Prius hybrid owner from Minnesota who has a detailed web site where he has diligently posted photos, mileage reports, personal impressions, and hybrid information & news since 2000.

He purchased his first Prius in early-September 2000 (the first generation model... or as John refers to it -- the "Classic Prius") and drove the vehicle year-round (including through Minnesota's cold winters) for just over three years (almost 60,000 miles) until he traded it in for the second generation Prius (what he calls the "Iconic Prius") in October 2003.

He is still driving that Prius 8-1/2 years later (and almost 120,000 miles), posting about all of his experiences including winter mileage and performance. He's definitely a strong hybrid supporter (and was not so keen on Ford's first hybrid being a Sport Utility Vehicle), but the information he provides is -- I believe -- accurate and knowledge based (even if I do find a few of his opinions a bit fanatical and pro-Toyota).

So, for nine years worth of cold-weather hybrid experience (including some great photos), check out John's site at:

http://john1701a.com/index.html

P.S. -- John has already noted he is trading in his 2nd-generation Prius for the new 3rd-generation Prius; he was hoping to have his new hybrid this month, but it is likely arriving in June.
 

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I am well aware of the cold weather effects on hybrid vehicles. Part of my family lives in Northern Wisconsin and I experienced -16F several nights in January 2009. The hybrid battery pack does not work well when it is too cold. It will not allow charging or discharging for normal propulsive needs. This battery pack will undergo a series of short charges and discharges --as seen on a scanguage II unit--in an attempt to bring its temperature up "normal" conditions. While this is going on, one will notice a difference in vehicle mileage and operation. An engine block heater the 2005 thru 2007 models had a connection to the hybrid battery to warm it up with a 3-4 hour "plug-in".
 

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08HybridOK- I was thinking that the recycled seating surfaces were only on the Hybrid. Is it installed in all of the EMT SUVs? Oh, just a thought. Leather is a recycled seating surface... ;)

Really, a person that does a certain amount of driving in a manner that is best for the operating parameters of a Hybrid will get greater benefit from it. Especially if they compare it to a non-Hybrid. But I wonder if the reverse is true?

Personally, I am fine without the Hybrid feature on our Tribute. It gets excellent mileage, and was considerably less expensive to buy. We would have to keep it longer than 15 years to realize the benefit with our usage pattern. Maybe if we drove it for more miles per day in the suburbs where we live I could justify it. Just not at 10-12K per year. Not enough gas going through it, even at $4 per gallon.
 

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well, i just picked up an '09 silver hybrid. i'm not 100% sure why. traded in the '97 f-150 for it. C4C deal. i actually started to cry when i let go of the f150. my first pick-up truck. then i figured, the gas i am saving in the hybrid-- gives me more for my 450 HP LIGHTNING!
 

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gunman said:
well, i just picked up an '09 silver hybrid. i'm not 100% sure why. traded in the '97 f-150 for it. C4C deal. i actually started to cry when i let go of the f150. my first pick-up truck. then i figured, the gas i am saving in the hybrid-- gives me more for my 450 HP LIGHTNING!
Congratulations on, your new " Silver" hybrid escape. :) :clap: :thumb:
 

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Yes, congrats! Now show us some pics!!!
:wave: :beer: :wave:

(please!) :)
 

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I agree with the jonas' reply, but assuming you are starting from a clean slate, I'd buy a regular Escape. I say this after owning a FEH for three years. My main complaint is that driving a hybrid is like driving an exotic sports car. If you drive off the beaten path it is unlikely that you can find a competent mechanic to fix anything that goes wrong (or even in many larger cities). Even a simple issue can cost you hundreds of dollars in "diagnostic" time as they fiddle around. Even GaryG who is one of the brightest FEH enthusiasts around, ended up paying (I believe) $1200 to have a $12 part identified and installed (a simple relay). Parts can be ridiculously expensive - like an ABS module for $4500, for instance. So, even though you are saving money on gas, a minor trip to the dealer can wipe out a decade's worth of fuel saving.

I've had a lot of fun with my FEH and it is an interesting machine, but I'm tired of having to dread a potential breakdown and being at the mercy of a Ford dealer running the meter at $130 an hour and plugging in expensive parts to see what works. My next Ford will be a regular gasser.
 
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