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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, I upgraded my system. I put in a Pioneer DEH-P4000UB, ead unit (including the Bluetooth package, which I ran the microphone up the trim panel near the windshield out the headliner and through the sun visor, it works really well and looks very clean)I will post pics, I'm a new 2003 XLT Escape owner and new to this board)
Anyways, I put new these speakers in, Pioneer TS-A6882R, and used plenty of dynamat to do the inner and outer skin of all 4 doors. The system sounds great, but I wana do the tweeers now, which seem to be much more complicated.

My question is, is I buy these tweeters, http://www.crutchfield.com/g_430/Tweete ... %7cPioneer ,with a 'inline' (built in) crossover do I need to remove the factory crossover? And, if I remove the factory crossover, then what? Because I think that the wiring harness that attaches the 6x8 speakers needs to be attached to the tweeter harness/ crossover to power the 6x8's.

Would it be a better idea to buy tweeters without a built in crossover then just hard wire them to the factory crossover or would using the factory crossover reduce my sound quality??

I Hope I didn't confuse everybody and appreciate any feedback…
 

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Short answer (it seems nobody gives a rat's *** about my longer more technical answers):

You bought a replacement speaker that already has a tweeter in it, a coaxial speaker. If you want the advantages of a separate tweeter, you probably don't want to just ADD a tweeter to your existing setup. It doesn't work like that.

The right way to do it is to run a woofer in the factory door location, cut a simple small hole in the upper sail panel/door sill area and mount a quality tweeter. If you are doing this the "normal" way (and not using an active crossover and home theater speakers like some do), you are best off buying a matching component set, one that contains a quality tweeter, woofer, and most importantly a proper crossover. Those inline crossovers you mention are nothing more than a 6dB/oct shallow slope crossover. They are weak, really only made to keep heavy bass from destroying a small speaker. For actual sound quality purposes, there must be a proper blend between the woofer and the tweeter, and the roll-off of frequencies must be carefully matched. Otherwise you end up with heavy mud for sound instead of higher fidelity.

You really need to purchase a quality matched component set, and amplify it accordingly.

My signature contains car audio tutorial sites, my pictures, and my install diaries to help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the info,, so here is a follow up question,, should I disable/ remove my
factory tweeters, if the coaxial speakers I installed already have built in tweeters??
The sound seems pretty good but are the tweeters compeating with eachother hurting the sound potential??
If you suggest that the factory tweeter should come out do I need to take the factory crossover out also??
 

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617Escape said:
Thanks for the info,, so here is a follow up question,, should I disable/ remove my
factory tweeters, if the coaxial speakers I installed already have built in tweeters??
The sound seems pretty good but are the tweeters compeating with eachother hurting the sound potential??
If you suggest that the factory tweeter should come out do I need to take the factory crossover out also??
It is important to remember that a speaker is a source of sound, and with a proper pair in the right position you are creating a 3D image acoustically. With more speakers in different locations, this serves to do nothing but smear the image and create an incoherent acoustic sound stage. If you hop in a car with woofers and tweeters installed wherever they may fit, it may at first sound loud and clear, but instruments will be in all sorts of different places, vocals will not be coherent in a certain location, background instruments may become more prominent than foreground ones, etc. In other words, at first listen it may sound "good", but shortly after being in there you'll become fatigued and wonder what the hell is wrong with the system. The usual solution is to turn it up more, so your ears are literally blasted into submission. The answer is that in order to truly enjoy music on a level approaching live listening at any volume, you must pay attention to time coherence, and frequency response characteristics that each speaker seems suitable at playing. When you sit in my car, I've paid attention to this and if you close your eyes in the driver's seat an acoustic image will appear at dashboard height about 3 feet from you or so. Vocal singers are centered, instruments placed in solid places behind that, and ambient additions seem to come from the sides of nowhere to your ear. Of course a system is only as good as the original recording you play, so that matters as well. Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon is a good system test if you want to make sure your stage is coherent, except with "Money", where there are cash registers seemingly from all sorts of places, at different times. That is a good judge of stereo separation instead :)

Factory stuff should not interact with aftermarket stuff. They have different sensitivities so it is impossible to match them together. Exception: Rear speakers in my system are stock, powered off the head unit. I also have them just BARELY audible at the highest levels of output in my system. They serve only to fill in the rear and to keep rear passengers happy.

The factory crossover is nothing more than a capacitor, a basic thing to remove if you want to. I don't use factory wiring, so I don't bother with removing things like that. I just let it be, and run my wires in place of factory. If you use the factory wiring, you want nothing in the way of the signal you are sending your replacement speakers, unless they were made for it.

A pair of tweeters properly aimed and distanced from the listener, with a proper crossover point and a matching pair of woofers also with a proper crossover point is the "right" way to do this.

Do you have a good home stereo system? Something you can use as a reference? Even a modest pair of bookshelf speakers properly placed and powered would work to give you a reference point. As a backup plan, you can try a high quality (~$100+) set of headphones, like Sennheisers. They give a different sensation of sound stage, as if the stage is inside your head instead of being in front of you, but the sound quality should be as good or better than a pair of 'shelves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for all the help so far Fourthmeal. So, if i decide to remove my (brand new) front coaxial speakers and buy a new set of component speakers can i run them straight off my HU or do i need to get involved with amps? Id prefer not to go down that road if i dont have to.
 

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617Escape said:
Thanks for all the help so far Fourthmeal. So, if i decide to remove my (brand new) front coaxial speakers and buy a new set of component speakers can i run them straight off my HU or do i need to get involved with amps? Id prefer not to go down that road if i dont have to.
Its up to you. A typical head unit can push 10-15W of semi-clean power before clipping, and that's all you get. An amp can do double, triple, or more power than that much cleaner, so the end result is much better sound quality and volume as well.

GOOD Component speakers will sound better amplified because they can handle it. The crossovers can take more power before saturating, the woofer is capable of more excursion, and the tweeters are able to take more power due to their design and size (comparing this all with typical coaxials.) If I were in your shoes, I'd run your coaxial set of speakers in the rear so as not to waste them install a high quality component set up front, a 4 channel amp, and a very modest 8 to 10" sub. You can power the rear off deck power, run two of your channels off your amp to the front speakers, and bridge the two remaining for a basic sub. This completes the package at a minimal price.
 

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Here's some basic stuff on the cheap:

Awesome cheap amp, 4ch US Acoustics for $59 + ship.
http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Acoustics-USB-40 ... 286.c0.m14

Its bigger brother for $79 + ship.
http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Acoustics-USB-40 ... 286.c0.m14

A New Blaupunkt (good brand for the money for amps) basic amp, $69.95 + ship
http://cgi.ebay.com/Blaupunkt-PCA-465-A ... 286.c0.m14

Here's a Crunch, not a great brand but decent. Better than most of the other Legacy, Pyramid, Boss, etc. brands. This one is $74+ ship.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-CRUNCH-P900-4-9 ... 286.c0.m14

you need an 8 gauge wiring kit. About $30-40 for one, including RCA's and everything. I like to get either Phoenix Gold (not Phoenix Digital!) wiring kits on eBay, or go to Knukonceptz for kits.

Here's a nice couple set of components:

Cadence, a great brand for the dough.
http://cgi.ebay.com/CADENCE-CWM6-KIT-AL ... 286.c0.m14

Scosche EFX, better than most people think:
http://cgi.ebay.com/EFX-HDX67-6-5-6-75- ... 286.c0.m14

Alpine's basic line, great for smooth sound:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALPINE-SPS-600C-6-5 ... 286.c0.m14

JBL's GTO, a little bright but powerful:
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-GTO607c-6-5-COM ... 286.c0.m14

Boston Acoustic, if you like their home stuff:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSTON-ACOUSTICS-S6 ... 286.c0.m14

CDT Audio, usually excellent but overpriced, at this price ($99) they are spot-on and a good deal. Excellent crossovers.
http://cgi.ebay.com/CDT-Audio-CL-S60A-T ... 286.c0.m14

So that's a start for components.

For a sub, you need a quality box. This thing is a steal at $19.99, even if you know how to build boxes you can't buy wood that cheap.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_758 ... 10SE-.html

This is my list of cheap CHEAP subs...

Scosche, again, better than most people think, $35.99
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_474 ... W1044.html

Diamond, an awesome brand: $45 with what looks to be free shipping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIAMOND-AUDIO-D110D ... 286.c0.m14

Phoenix Gold RSd, I have the amps from this line. $49.95 brand new, free ship.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PHOENIX-GOLD-RSd10- ... 286.c0.m14

And that's pretty much a start.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for all the good info Fourthmeal. Im gona take your suggestions, minus one. If I don't add a subwoofer will the system sound & perform decent? I drive around with two big dogs in the trunk too often to put a box back there. I am planing on doing a amp witht the component speakers and will post pics of the install once i figure out how! One more question.. will the 6 or 6 3/4 speakers that you sent me link to fit in the speaker holes, or do they need some sort of adapter?
 

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617Escape said:
Thanks for all the good info Fourthmeal. Im gona take your suggestions, minus one. If I don't add a subwoofer will the system sound & perform decent? I drive around with two big dogs in the trunk too often to put a box back there. I am planing on doing a amp witht the component speakers and will post pics of the install once i figure out how! One more question.. will the 6 or 6 3/4 speakers that you sent me link to fit in the speaker holes, or do they need some sort of adapter?
Subwoofers simply reinforce the bottom end of the musical spectrum since its missing from the typical speakers. So, sure you can do without it but it will never sound complete. You don't need much of a sub, just "something" will do. If you have an Escape that has a factory subwoofer location, you could probably mod that location to fit an aftermarket 6.5" Tangband sub (sold at partsexpress.com) or something similar. I understand the dog thing.

To make most 6 1/2" speakers fit 5x7 holes, they will either come with a plastic adapter (decent) or you can make your own out of cutting board material or similar. I don't like wood for door adapters because they get wet inside, and wet wood doesn't live long. Basically it takes a few basic tools and a few minutes to make adapters. Real simple.
 
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